Cake For Breakfast

Joyce Fetteroll wrote this post on the Unschooling Discussion Google Group in response to an email she received. It’s so eloquent and beautiful and explains what I’ve tried to explain, but so much better, I had to share it with everyone. This speaks exactly to how and why we do things the way we do. For more words of wisdom, I also give you Joyce’s site: Joyfully Rejoycing

Without further ado, here’s Joyce:
The Post Link

This is my response to an email I received this morning. — Joyce

Emailer: You are nuts! Children need boundaries, rules and expectations!

Joyce’s Answer: You’re right. Children do need help figuring out the world. They can’t do it alone. And that’s what you’ve experienced: hands off parenting. Parents who don’t give their kids any guidance or feedback or help in making decisions. Basically kids who are trying to reinvent the social wheel. And of course most of them will get it wrong. Yes, I’ve met those kids too. They can be nasty.

But what I (and others I know) are talking about is an entirely different approach and it’s hard to grasp when the only models most people have experienced is rules or no rules. Respectful parenting is neither of those. It is a relationship and partnership with a child. We are there to help and guide them. We are there to provide information and help them figure things out. We aren’t there to make them do it right but to help them try things out and problem solve. Help them figure out how to get what they want while respecting the rights of others.

Basically we help our kids figure out how to live in the world. Not step back and let them figure it out! (That would be cruel :-/) But be their support and information system as they try out ideas on a situation.

And as a teacher you know that just telling and making a child doesn’t ensure that they’ve actually learned. Or that they truly deeply understand in a way that they can apply it when they encounter it outside the classroom (or even on a problem that’s presented a little differently).

Emailer: Just skimming over your web site drove me crazy! I am a teacher and everyday I see kids that have been brought up on your philosophy. They are a pain in the butt ( as well as their parents) and the other children don’t play with them as they are bossy and self centered!AGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

Joyce’s Reply: Yes, I agree, kids who are being raised with hands off parenting are a pain in the butt. There are parents who substitute giving kids things instead of giving them time. Or who “lovingly” step back and let their kids work out their differences often by bullying other
kids. Or parents who approach life with the sense of the world owes me and mine and models how to grasp what you want and damn everyone else.

Kids like that have been, essentially, neglected :-/ They’re growing up needy of deep, personal relationships and trying to grasp what they need from others around them because their parents aren’t providing it. But they have no clue how to do that. It’s very warping

Fortunately that’s not what I’m talking about!

Emailer: I bet your children are spoiled,

Joyce’s Answer: And I’m sure that would be the guess of most people who think I’m promoting hands off parenting! And they’d be right if that’s what I was talking about.

I’m sure you’ve experienced kids who are obedient to their parents and terrors behind their backs. And the parents are totally clueless :-/

No, my daughter is a delight which isn’t just my opinion but is feedback from adults who’ve been with her when she’s not around me. And they invite her back That’s probably not what most people would say about their 15 yos! She’s helpful and respectful.

Emailer: lazy

Joyce: She asks me several times a day if she can do anything to help. And helps willingly when I ask. Hey, and she doesn’t even grumble or roll her eyes!

She started taking college math courses at 13. Not because she’s a math whiz — more art and writing oriented — but just because she thinks it’s fun. (The other college students said they were under the impression she’s anywhere from 17-20 She was varsity on the high school cross country as a “freshman” (she doesn’t attend but can participate in sports) and now as a “sophomore” and enjoys running and training and takes supporting her team very seriously. She attended meets and practices last year even after she was injured just to support the other kids on the team.

No, she’s far from lazy or spoiled

And, having just gotten back from an unschooling conference of 500 people (moms, dads and kids), I can say that of the other kids too. While they had far more freedom than conventionally parented kids, they were far better behaved. Can you imagine several hundred kids running around a hotel, often on their own, and *not* destroying things and getting in trouble with the hotel? If just a classroom is taken to the museum for a field trip, there’s always problems. But I can say I don’t have to imagine respectfully parented kids not destroying things because I’ve experienced it. The hotel even wants them back

When the world is divided between what you’re allowed to do and what you aren’t allowed to do, then it’s natural — prominent in kids but buried deep and suppressed in adults — to want to try out the things people say they don’t trust you can handle. Even if it’s something you don’t really want to do! A rule is sort of like a challenge to test yourself against. :-/

When the world is divided into what you want to do and what you don’t want to do and you’ve had help getting what you want (*and* help not stepping on others toes to get it! because the world does have rules and expectation and conventions and consequences) then there isn’t a reason to do the things you don’t want to do

Because most of us have only experienced kids who’ve been tightly controlled (or been let loose to figure it out themselves :-/) it’s hard to imagine that every child isn’t exactly like them, that their reactions to situations won’t be exactly like those kids. But I know from experience that when kids are helped to satisfy their urges and curiosity — while brainstorming ways that it can be done safely and respectful of the rest of the world — that they don’t grow up needy. They aren’t trying to meet their needs behind adult backs in dangerous ways. And they’re more accepting of the times when the answer has to be no because most of the time the answer is “Yes, let’s figure out how to do that (safely and respectfully).

Emailer: and will never get along in the “real world!”

Joyce: Actually she’s already living in the real world! And doing just fine. While, at 15, she’s not living on her own yet she’s becoming more and more independent every day, naturally growing into it because she’s dealing with real world problems in the *real* real world.

It’s odd, but we all think of school as being the real world. And yet when you step back and look at it objectively, school doesn’t resemble any other part of society outside of school.

As unschoolers we encounter real life problems being out in the world. Instead of facing a lesson on how to do it right, my daughter and I tackle it together with the attitude of “Let’s figure this out!”

I think rule based parenting is similar to teaching kids how to do percentages. The theory is that if you make them do it right long enough then they’ll internalize how to do it right and will have, therefore, learned. And as a teacher I’m sure you’ve experienced kids who go through that process and still don’t understand. Or can do it
mechanically but really don’t understand. Or they forget.

I think respectful parenting is similar to learning to ride a bike. The bike, gravity, pavement all provide feedback on whether you’ve got it right. Or right enough to work. And then you work on refining it. And you don’t forget because it’s learning by doing. Learning through immersion. We don’t make them do it right. We help them think through the problem, provide information, and help them as they try out solutions. It’s often the less than optimal solutions — as long as they aren’t going to injure themselves or harm others — that are the most instructive because they can see *why* other ways work better. They can see and experience the consequences and the learning is far deeper than being told how to do it right.

The unfortunate thing is that most people will assume that this works for me because I have a good kid. But I know — because others have come from rule-based parenting to respectful parenting and seen the change in their kids — that it’s because being respectful of her models and encourages respect. And it works beautifully She’s kind and sweet — not even ever followed by a “but she has her moments”! — and most parents don’t get the opportunity to say that about their 15 yo daughters

I *know* there’s this great big hurdle between what I’m saying and what you imagine I’m saying. As they say in order to fill a cup with something new you need to empty it first! When kids are doing something wrong or mean it seems the only answer is control, punishment and lectures. That idea is what needs to be dumped out before a new idea can begin to fill it. (And you don’t need to keep the new idea. You can put the old idea back in if you don’t like it But rather than assuming they’ve done something wrong, and *instead* assume they don’t have the skills and understanding to meet their needs in ways that don’t hurt something (or themselves), if we instead help anyone who’s hurt, help clean up the mess, and then help the child get what they want in a way that’s safe and respectful of others (and it may not be a direct path to it, but a step in a different direction) then they grow to understand that parents aren’t there to stop them but to help them get their needs met — in ways that are safe and respectful of others.

It’s hard to picture, I know. We’re all used to kids who are trying every which way to get what they want because their parents and other adults are only helping with the wants the parents agree with (and often put conditions on them “You can if … you work to pay for it, you do your chores for a week without complaint …” So we assume that it’s natural for all kids to want outrageous things and will go wild with freedom. Because controlled (and neglected) kids do!

It seems to make sense that without controls that kids will eat ice cream for breakfast everyday, watch nothing but TV and play video games while eating chips and drinking Coke, and they’ll move onto drugs and smoking and sex and driving fast. It seems that the only reason kids don’t do those things is because of control. And yet it isn’t so. When kids know that the adults in their world are their partners, there isn’t a need to try to meet needs in unsafe ways. And people will ask “If your daughter wanted to try drugs you’d let her?” But that situation is unlikely to come up because she doesn’t have the factors in her life that are driving kids to drugs. She doesn’t need to escape. She isn’t pressured to be other than who she is. She doesn’t need to try dangerous things when others aren’t around to stop her to see if she can. It’s a totally different atmosphere than most kids are growing up in and it’s very difficult to explain. But it’s a delight to experience the effects of because I can truly say I like the person my daughter is.

~Joyce

This was a question posed for the Unschooling Carnival, and since it’s something that’s come up recently, I’ve been thinking about how to answer it The question was:

Unschooling Math: If you’re like me and went to public school, you grew up being taught math from a text book. Now, as an unschooling parent, how do you live math when you’ve been conditioned to think of math in school terms. How do you go from one to the other?

To answer this question, I have to give a very brief bit of history I was homeschooled from what would be considered Kindergarten through Grade 5. I went to public school for grades 6-8, private Christian school for grade 9 (which was actually gr. 10 except for Math) and entered the work force at 16. When I was 21 and wanted to enter University, I had to complete the equivalent of grade 12 math with a score of over 80% to be admitted to take science classes (though I ended up taking a BA). I passed that math course with an 88%. The highest mark in the class, and that’s with taking off two weeks near the end of it to have a baby So I have a very varied and interesting math background. Andrew on the other hand, was public schooled for 12 years, and has had 7 years of post-secondary studies for his degrees, including university level math since he went in the Computer Science field. So he has what would be considered a very “normal” math background.

I’m a firm believer in mathematics being learned naturally. Looking at any toddler supports that belief. Every toddler at some point uses numbers in their daily life, be it to count their blankies, to sorting their blocks, to play hide and seek. Kids naturally use numbers and formulas and geometry and fractions and so on in day to day living. It’s just another example of everything being interconnected. It’s when you separate it out, that it becomes a big scary thing that must be “LEARNED” and mastered and have the fun sucked out of it. Also, a common misconception we personally run into is the idea of arithmetic being “THE MATH”. When in fact, it’s only one little part of the world of numbers. I think that trips up people’s thinking at times.

For us, it’s been easy to go from textbook math in our backgrounds, to living math. We didn’t have a shift persay, since it makes/made sense to us that math was all around us so I think it might be different for us than for others who found it more to make the change. I don’t ever remember having textbook math up until grade 6 when I started public school. I remember cooking and baking and fun games with multiplication and division and I don’t ever remember “hating math” until I was in public school. I hated math then. I loved math again in grade 9, but we had a good teacher who wasn’t as concerned with the form it took, but rather whether we understood the calculations and got the right answer. How we got there was up to us. But until I took that math upgrading course, I was convinced I was bad at math and that I hated math. I realized then, that I didn’t hate math, and I wasn’t bad at it at all. It was just that I had been told I was because my “grades” sucked and I didn’t follow the “correct” formulas in the textbooks even though I got the right answer. Andrew had the experiences in school where he’d also get the right answer but not how they showed it “should” be done, and so therefore was wrong.

What I keep in mind to stay in the living math mindset, is that some people are naturally number/mathmatically-inclined. Some are musically-inclined. Some are artistically-inclined…and so on. I personally don’t have a crafty bone in my body, but I can cook like an angel. I like numbers and patterns and accounting, but I don’t have the quick mental computational skills that Andrew has, but I can read a novel in an hour. Sophia has an unbelievably good ear for music, but she can’t stand colouring. It comes down to your natural inclination. I believe that people will pick up the required math needed to live and live well, naturally, but that for advanced math, it’s up to that person, and that it might have more to do about their talents and natural strengths, than anything else. My kids at the moment have a good, firm understanding of numeracy and daily math. They can figure out percents, and fractions and taxes and averages and so on, without any math lessons. There’s a lot of explaining and defining and reasoning and discussion about numbers and math and computation and so on, but there’s no “lessons” to be taught and no textbooks to be forced to use. We have some floating around here somewhere, and we have workbooks too, but they’re rarely used, and only at the kids’ desire, and they still have all that knowledge. It’s real and applicable to them, and it sticks with them.

I read somewhere once, that a child, when ready and wanting, can complete the entire math curriculum from grades 1-12 in 4 months. When they’re ready and able and WANT to. Until then, I feel that kids will gain all sorts of knowledge that they need to know without needed to sit down and “do math” or have lessons or use a textbook. Textbooks are a surefire way to make most kids who are not mathmatically inclined, hate math. And they can really sucks the fun out of it for those who do enjoy math and are so inclined.

So for us, it hasn’t been the same stumbling block that it might be for others. For some reason, that’s the one unschooling thing that doesn’t give me panics over. I see how well I’ve been able to function and how I use math and how Andrew uses math and how at any time when someone needs to or is interested enough to, they can pick up all the extra math skills they might need. If it comes that the kids want to learn or do “advanced” math and need textbook math to accomplish that, great. As long as it’s their desire and need to know.

It’s just one more thing that kids and adults can’t help but be surrounded with in a big, full life. You can’t help learn all these things, but HOW you learn them and WHY you learn them can play a big part in your life and your view of things. Without textbooks and lessons, kids have no fear of math and numbers. It’s fun and games to them, and they get to explore all the facets of things that may scare the crap out of schooled adults.

Living math is fun and exciting and amazing and mind-blowing at times. And, yes, even sometimes mundane. But with no math fear, even kids who aren’t interested in “math”, find things like contemplating googolplex plus one, and base-10 compared to base-12 and tax rates and what happens if you mix up fractions when baking and that music and math are interrelated and that mathmatics can be artistically beautiful (all things we’ve talked about this week with our kids), interesting and fun and part of a good life. When it’s not compartmentalized and “taught” between 10 and 10:45am Monday to Friday and an hour of homework at 5pm, math isn’t scary; isn’t terrifing; isn’t boring; isn’t something that “has” to be done. It’s just another interesting part of a good life.

If you keep that in mind, it’s easy to move away from and stay away from the thought that you need textbook math to know math or to learn math. From the Wikipedia entry for Mathematics:

Mathematics (abbr. maths or math) is the discipline that deals with concepts such as quantity, structure, space and change. It evolved, through the use of abstraction and logical reasoning, from counting, calculation, measurement and the study of the shapes and motions of physical objects. Mathematicians explore such concepts, aiming to formulate new conjectures and establish their truth by rigorous deduction from appropriately chosen axioms and definitions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematics

You can’t avoid that in daily life From counting the scoops of coffee or tea for your morning caffeine boost, to calculating the amount of change you have in your change jar so you can hit the farmers market, to measuring how tall the “baby” has gotten in the last *gasp* month, to pondering the meaning of life…..it all involves math without a textbook. It’s part and parcel of life.

Although we’ve been together over 13 years, we were married 8 years ago today And, at the time, we didn’t realize it was also “Talk Like a Pirate Day” or we might have actually had a different theme to our wedding….ok, not really, but hey, I could think of worse days to share an anniversary with

So, happy anniversary to my dear hubby. Or, as the pirates say: “Aye, happy anni’ersary t’ my dear hubby Ye’ll ne’er get me buried booty!”

p.s. I keep hearing that song from George Shrinks “It’s our anniversary…it’s our anniversary”….argh!

I feel weird calling it preschool, though that’s what SHE calls it, when it’s not “really” a preschool in reality. I guess in theory it is Anyways, whatever you want to call it, yesterday was her first day since she missed all last week being sick. And, though I didn’t expect tears or anything like that, the girl surprised the hell out of me This is the girl, who just in JUNE, was literally and absolutely terrified of people, men especially. June. And, who, up until maybe, 3 weeks ago, would hide when people came over to our house, wouldn’t talk to anyone she didn’t want to, would cry in stores if someone looked at her.

3 weeks ago we visited my mom, who the kids hadn’t seen in a while, and who Sophia had never met. She was AMAZING! Walked right in, said hi, talked to mom, played with her, the cat, other people, gave her a hug goodbye even!! (disclaimer: we do NOT make the kids hug/kiss/talk to anyone, it’s all on their comfort level) Then a couple days after that, at the fair, she was talking to the ride operators etc. The “breakthrough” in her terror seemed to come last week, when several things happened.

First, my FIL came back out after about 6 weeks at home. She hadn’t talked to him all summer, and was scared of him at the start of the summer, and very shy around him as the summer went on. Last Monday, they stopped in, and she ran over TO him and said hi, talked to him for a bit, and then ran off and did her own thing. Coming BACK over to him from time to time to talk. I was stunned. HE was stunned

The second thing that showed us she was finally comfortable again, was that a friend of ours came over. He comes over frequently, but every time for over a year that he’d stop by, she’d cry and hide and just not be in the same room as him. He arrives, she runs over and says HI! And he asks her how she was doing, to which she always replied, I’m 3 (which is way cute), and says, I’m fine thanks! *insert jaw drop here*

It was so cool If that wasn’t proof right there that how we handled the whole terrified issue was the right way, I don’t know what was. I know some of it is probably a growth in development and emotional growth as well as she’s nearing her 4th birthday, but it was so immediate a change, that it took us by surprise. But really, knowing the girl, I’m not sure WHY we were surprised Any time she’s ready to do something, it’s literally instantaneous.

So, it came as little surprise to me that she’d be happy to go, since this was something she wanted to do so badly. But it came as a HUGE surprise just how well the first day went. She waltzed in, talked to one of the two leaders, who is a MAN, and said a couple things to him, said a couple of things to the other leader and ran off to play. She didn’t even look back! Today, same deal. Gave me a hug, and ran off to play. LOL That said, I wouldn’t be surprised a week or so from now if we hit a bumpy patch, but knowing her, I don’t think we will! She had so much fun. They played and danced and sung and made muffins and snacks and played in the jungle gym and the second she woke up this morning, she asked if it was preschool time again

Just more proof supporting your children in their interests and supporting them through rough spots and fears and being there for them, with no agenda or ulteriour motive, is the way to go.

Since the entire family came down with a nasty head cold/sinus thing. Last night was the first night since Monday I’ve had a decent sleep So it’s been sort of a grumpy house this week. Sophia was the most bummed, since she missed the first week of playgroup. But since she’s not vaccinated, we’re required to keep her out until she’s not contagious (which, makes NO sense logically….but oh well) and I wouldn’t want anyone to send THEIR kid sick, so she just didn’t go all week. She was majorly bummed. So we try again next week!

The kids are looking forward to the start of October, because all their evening/weekend stuff starts then. Unfortunately for me, it’s on the other side of town, but, they’re excellent programs, so it’s worth the drive.

I’ll be in better posting spirits come the start of the week, once my head clears out a little so I can hear myself think again without it sounding like I’m underwater!!

~~~~Original post was started August 28~~~

In the last few weeks or so, several people have commented to me in passing about “experts” and teaching. A couple comments were about how we “teach” our kids, other comments were about experts teaching kids and I’ve read a couple things in the last week that were about experts teaching kids instead of parents. All of it’s been swirling in my head the last while, and I’ve been thinking about my responses to those comments.

Some of my educational philosophy if you want to call it that, is directly related to the fact that I don’t take things at face value. Just because so-and-so is an “expert”, doesn’t mean that they’re right for my situation, or even right at all. Maybe it’s a suspicious nature, or just inherent cynicism, but I just don’t believe someone automatically just because they’re an expert and they say it’s best.

We believe that children learn best when given the freedom to learn what, when, how and why they want. That children inherently learn best without teaching, but, instead, with facilitation and attentive help as they need and desire it. “Teaching” doesn’t automatically mean a child is learning. And just because a person was/is a teacher, doesn’t make them automatically more knowledgeable and better at helping a child. John Holt said: “We don’t need to be taught how to learn: we’re born knowing and wanting to. It’s our nature, our genes, our biological inheritance. The hardest thing for parents to learn is hands-off. Teach less, not more.” Children can’t help but learn. It’s hardwired.

If you want to talk qualifications, who better to help a child grow and learn and experience life, than their parents? Who has been with them every step of the way, since their first breath; who knows their strengths and weaknesses and likes and dislikes and passions and fears? Who’s more “qualified”? A teacher who sees them one-on-one for no more than several minutes at a time each day, who sees them as just the latest crop and a name in the attendance book, who doesn’t have time for knowing all those things about each child. Even the best teachers can’t be all and do all.

If you want to take the example a little more to the extreme, I’d argue that the ONLY expert on each individual child, is the child themselves. No one is more knowledgeable or capable of knowing the intricacies of that child, than that child. The only true expert is the child. You don’t need an expert to teach your child, since your child IS the expert. It is a bit radical in thought, but it makes sense if you believe in the philosophy behind it and it makes more sense the more you see it in action.

For some things, it’s good to have experts involved, but I’m sure everyone would get a second opinion, even from the “experts”. Experts have been known to be wrong, and if we’re talking in the medical and scientific area of expertise, knowledge changes so rapidly. Applying that to schools and education, what one expert may say today and teach your child today, may be found to be false a year from now, and your child might not know that it was false.

I guess it comes down to the fact I do have “experts” teaching my kids. Or at least my kids learn from experts…themselves.

If you want my body and you think I’m sexy
Come on sugar let me know.
If you really need me just reach out and touch me
Come on honey tell me so
Tell me so baby

LOL ok, so I know everyone’s thinking…OMG, she’s lost her mind!! But when I redid the blog theme today, I had this song stuck in my head, and I’m a firm believer in sharing ear worms!!!

What’s an “ear worm”??? I’m glad you asked

Urban Dictionary Definition

And, surprisingly, an article from BBC Science/Health:

BBC News

Aren’t you glad you popped in here?? Got an earful AND an eyeful….

But, as it’s almost fall here (good lord we had a FROST warning in parts of NB overnight) I was up for a change So, squash abounds….. and just to make SURE you’ve got the ear worm too, I leave you with this:

If you want my body and you think I’m sexy
Come on sugar let me know.
If you really need me just reach out and touch me
Come on honey tell me so
Tell me so baby

Though we’ve been homeschooling since Spring 2003, last year we started a new tradition during the first week of school starting again. There’s a local exhibition/fair that runs the Labour Day week, and since schools here start the day AFTER Labour Day, we go to the fair. It’s like our own private amusement park for hours, since it opens at noon and the schools around here don’t get out until 3pm. All the rides are more or less empty for the bigger kids, and there’s hardly any kids for the little rides. We go and ride and play for 8 or so hours, and then come home and crash From time to time I feel guilty that we’re out and available to have all this fun, while other kids are locked away. What made this year really neat is that we bumped into two OTHER homeschooling families we actually knew, who were doing the same thing we were doing

So, without further ado, our *Not Back to School* day at the fair pictures. Click on the pictures to get the larger size and watch the videos…..

Thursday, September 7, 2006

We went to the ocean about an hour from here (Bay of Fundy for those in the know). My sister, who works in the city there at Old Navy, said it was her busiest day since Christmas….we spent it visiting family and rock collecting and swimming in SURPRISINGLY warm water on a glorious day. Tell me these scenes weren’t the way to go?

Our 2nd Annual Not-Back-To-School outing is Thursday….we go to the carnival while the school kids are in school, and more or less have the entire fair to ourselves for hours

But, here’s pictures of our not-back-to-school-shopping outing from yesterday:

This month has lots of great posts from lots of great bloggers! Every month does, but, well, this month does too Go read them, it’ll be worth it.

And lots of thanks to Joanne for putting time and effort into it!!

You can find Carnival #3 here:
Unschooling Voices #3

And my two submissions, though they’re older pieces, here:
Let Them Eat Cake

and here:
How Will They Ever Learn World History?

Enjoy and hang around for next month’s question which you can find:
Unschooling Voices Information